» TW Cissexism

tiffanyannelise:

I know I said it in my answer to your ask, but you do not have to activly hate a group to be oppressing them. Your language is oppressive.

No, my language is not oppressive. I think I explained it pretty well in this post. I’m just basing it off of physical and scientific facts, nothing more, nothing less. I have nothing against them nor am I trying to oppress them with my language. Stop trying to get your last dig at me because all of your other attempts have failed. It seems to be a reacurring thing with you pro-choicers. When you feel like you’re losing a battle you go to your last option and that’s to call us Cissexist, Sexist, Misogynist, etc. It doesn’t do anything but make you look ignorant when you assume that people are something that they aren’t, especially when you’re basing that assumption on the mere fact of me using facts.

By saying women are the only people who can “physically and scientifically” give birth you are using oppressive language- by the way you are STILL ignoring intersexed people with that, people who are biologically and scientifically not men or women, some of these people have the capability to give birth. Claiming you’re not isn’t going to change that. I can say bananas are purple, but that doesn’t make it purple does it? Saying your not cissexist isn’t the same as not being cissexist.

You do not have to actively try to use oppressive language to be doing it, you do not have to actively think about hating someone to be doing a hateful thing.

And pardon you, feel like I’m loosing a battle? I have refuted every single one of your arguments thoroughly, with factual evidence, you are using this as a cop-out to discontinue. This isn’t some “last option”, I have been calling your language cissexist since my first response to you. Your failure to address it and change women to people is the nail in your coffin, your literally changing one word it’s no inconvenience to you, and you still won’t do it. Do you know what that says about you? It’s telling the world that YOUR beliefs, YOUR opinions are more important than Trans, Intersexed, Genderqueer, Gender-Fluid, Agendered, Genderless, and others who identify outside the gender binary. Your reluctance to change ONE WORD and recognize that abortion is not just a women’s issue is all the proof people need to call you cissexist.

Also I love how you can bring up science now when you said form day one that: Science has said things in the past and been proven wrong, therefore what they say now can be proven wrong also.You are a complete a total hypocrite and whatever respect I had for your ability to keep your cool is gone.

If any of my followers identify outside the gender binary, or are trans or intersexed, I would be really appreciative if you could tell OP just how their language is oppressive. My words as a cisswoman only mean so much.

[In response to this] Not photo capping this one because it’s rather long, but the entire question is broken up below.

TRIGGER FOR ILLEGAL ABORTIONS, RAPE, AND CISSSEXISM

Yes, it is a bit of hassel actually. It would be much easier if I could just write you back here. 

I can’t hyperlink, and there is an ask character limit. Writing another ask in your ask box with myresponses to yours would severely limit the response. I apologize for the hassle but I don’t want to limit my response to you based on ask box restrictions.

You don’t want someone to strip you of your rights, but aren’t you doing the same with the rights of the unborn child. We as humans have the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, do we not? Why should one human life have that right and another not?

Actually, the line you quoted is in the Declaration of Independence not in the Constitution and it’s Amendments. The later of the two outline our rights, not the Deceleration of Independents. Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness aren’t rights granted to the American People. However since we are apart of the UN Reproductive Rights are- Members of the UN are told they must keep abortion legal. Here’s another article laying out the complete list of legal documents concerning Reproductive Rights.

I know you’re going to say that an unborn child isn’t human as do most of the “pro-choicers” that write me. How can someone say that an unborn child isn’t human when it’s clearly made from two different ‘humans’? 

First off, you’re confused. It’s not that a gestating fetus isn’t human, it is I don’t think I’ve ever disputed this. It’s that it’s not recognized as a human person. There’s a difference between being human- being made up of human cells and DNA- and being a human person. For example my foot on it’s own is human, it’s a human foot, but if I remove my foot from my body it would perish without me but I can continue to live without my foot. I can explain further if you’d like, but I’m leaving it at that for now.

Second, even if “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” were legal rights people were granted we are only granted on the basis of what we can provide to ourselves and what people are willing to give us. There are hundreds of homeless people who die from exposure to the elements, because people aren’t forced to give up their property in order to save their lives. There are dozens of people who die from the inability to get the proper blood transfusion, or organ because people are not mandated to donate their bodies to save their lives. By saying a fetus can nonconsentually live inside someone’s body for nine months because they have the right to life is giving it rights that no other human person has. You, and other pro-lifers, are looking to give rights to a fetus that no other human person has. The right to life doesn’t triumph the right to property or bodily autonomy in any other situation.

You are using your opinion to actually remove the rights (not try to remove them) from the rights of the unborn child, but I can still respect them because it’s your opinion. If you do not want to respect someone else’s views on abortion that’s YOUR CHOICE. You can do what you want. $50 million unborn babies die every year from abortion, is that the number we pro-lifers like to quote? Does that number mean nothing to you, because you are pretty nonchalant about it and that’s a bit unnerving. It also doesn’t come anywhere near the amount of women who die from abortions (whether they be legal or illegal abortions). That’s an amount that could be prevented, but isn’t. There’s no need for me to multiply that number because of course a woman has a “choice” to abort or not to abort, am I right? She can clearly choose to NOT abort her baby. 

I may be using my opinions but I have backed everything up with facts- science, statistics, real world comparisons, research, etc. It’s what I’ve been siting this whole time. It’s why I need hyperlinks in order to respond to you.

I also preemptively addressed this as well in my last response to you:

And before you say “But your opinions remove the rights of babies~”. The legality of abortion doesn’t change the amount of abortions done [link 2], the only thing that changes is the amount of people who die or suffer serious complications. So you know that number of “unborn babies lost” you and other pro-lifers like to quote? Multiply it by two for the pregnant person and factor in all the children that will be left parent-less [the majority- about 61%- of people who seek abortion have one or more children]. And because I really like stories/essays by other people here’s a good one on abortion legality: “When abortion was a crime, I would have sought one”

Again, I will say it without the links that back up the information, the amount of abortions done does not change whether or not the procedure is legal. So that 50 million number will multply by two because after each illegal abortion the chance of the parent dying along with the fetus is nearly equal. Death for the parent from legal abortions however are near unheard of, in fact for every abortion related death in the USA, 10 people die in childbirth  (via AGI & CDC).

Like I said before. Pro-Lifers may be trying to “remove the rights of others” but Pro-Choicers DO remove the rights of others every single day. 

Please refer to everything above. Saying a fetus can use someone’s body for nine months without their consent is giving it a right no other human person has. It is actively allowing an illegal act (the nonconsentual use of someone’s body), giving a person’s attacker amnesty and disallowing a person to defend themselves and their bodily autonomy the only way they currently can.

 Bringing cancer into this argument is a bit overboard if I might say. But I’ll go with it. You know that a baby comes from sex we’ve cleared that up already. Therefore you know that a pregnancy can happen if you have sex. If you do the action of having sex you should have to be responsible for those actions. Like when you say smoking cigarettes causes cancer, yes it does and if I don’t want cancer from smoking cigarettes I’m going to do whatever it takes to not get it. Hints why I do not smoke cigarettes. I also do not overly bathe in the sun or go tanning because I know that I could possibly get cancer from it. It’s called taking every precaution we know we can take to prevent something we know can happen from happening, simple as that.

I only brought it up as a model for where consent to act A doesn’t mean you are consenting to result B. Taking that precaution is your choice, and good for you, but not everyone has to choose it and your saying that you take precautions doesn’t negate the argument, and we still do not bar people who get cancer fromsmoking from receiving treatment. You wouldn’t say getting chemo for your lung cancer caused by smoking isn’t taking responsibility for your actions, on the contrary you’d probably say it’s a very smart thing to do. Having an abortion is taking responsibility for your actions, just because you don’t agree with it doesn’t mean it’s not a responsible action- it’s recognizing that you aren’t ready for a pregnancy. Please refer to my other post to you as to why forced pregnancy is pretty gosh darn awful.

There are people who never, ever want children or want to be pregnant- I know at least two personally- are you also saying they should never ever be able to experience sex?

I’ve done my research and less than 1% of women use failed birth control as a reason, so that makes me think they aren’t doing everything they can to prevent the pregnancy they KNOW can happen from happening.

Pardon you “done your research”? I really doubt this, I would love to know where you found that information and when that information was collected because a 2000-2001 study doesn’t agree:

• Fifty-four percent of [people] who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant….[8]

• Forty-six percent of [people] who have abortions had not used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Of these[people] , 33% had perceived themselves to be at low risk for pregnancy (normally they were told either them or their partner were infertile), 32% had had concerns about contraceptive methods (this is from improper sexual health education thanks to abstinence only health programs), 26% had had unexpected sex and (reported) 1% had been forced to have sex.[8] (source)

Yes,  of course we don’t bar someone treatment for cancer (regardless of how they got the cancer) because it’s saving their life and not hurting another life in the process. Also, a baby isn’t a cancer so you kind of can’t compare the two. 

Once more, I was comparing the two in that it was obviousthat consenting to one act doesn’t mean you’re consenting to other.

There’s also my rape model in which consent can be retracted and if killing that person is the only way you could defend yourself against the continuous noncensensual use of your body it is legal and we do not penalize those who defend themselves provided it is the minimal force necessary. Currently abortion is the minimal force necessary to stop an embryo/fetus from the continual nonconsensual use of your body. And I will say it again: consenting to act A is not consenting to result B, and even if it were consent can be retracted.

“I am fighting to get these problems fixed as well because I want adoption to be just as safe and reliable a choice as abortion.”

Abortion isn’t a “safe” option, especially when it’s killing an unborn child. And even in instances it kills the mother. So how is it a “safe” option when the outcome for one is definitely going to be the ending of a life?

I posted one link above but you have received information when it comesto the safety of abortion. Abortion is actually one of the safest procedures in existence, and it’s actually safer than pregnancy, carrying to term, and delivery. The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (RCOG) has found that abortion is safer than birthing a child. “Fewer than 0.3% of abortion patients experience a complication that requires hospitalization.” And, I posted this once before in this wall of text but I’ll post it again, for every abortion related death in the USA, 10 people die in childbirth  (via AGI & CDC).

And here’s another thing I’m repeating: when someone is using your body without your continual consent (remember the rape example I brought up a bunch of times) you are within your legal right to defend yourself, even if the minimal defense is to kill them.

Why do you keep changing women to [people]? The only [people] that have abortions are women beings a woman is the only [person] that can physically get pregnant.

I change it to people because you are being cissexist. Not everyone who can get pregnant identifies as a woman. You are erasing trans men, intersex people who have the ability to become pregnant, genderqueer, genderfluid, agendered, genderless, and many other people who indentify outside the binary. By calling ovaries, a womb, etc. “woman parts” you are being a binarist, and again cissexist, as those parts belong to other people who do not identify as women.

As far as your response to [people] saying they have no choice, you didn’t really say much in the response to dispute it.  Also, I am not going to send death threats to anyone. Let alone to someone just because they are happy about getting an abortion, although I think that’s quite sickening to be happy about killing your own child. But I’m still not going to threaten to kill someone because that’s their reaction to such a horrific crime. 

What do you mean I didn’t say much to that? I provided you with over a dozen stories of people happy about their abortions, and even explained why more people don’t come forward. I also never said you would, I just implied that you have aligned yourself with a group that has done it.Your reluctance to read through the educational material I have provided you doesn’t mean I haven’t affectingly refuted your central point.

So because being pregnant is expensive means I should take a life and it be okay to do so? Living is expensive so that means I should kill someone for money? It worries me that the longest paragraph you right me trying to make your point is how expensive a pregnancy can be. That we should compare money to a life. 

These questions are all illogical straw men. You are accusing me of implying things I haven’t, and making an illogical connection. You wanted to know why people felt they didn’t have a choice, I told you why. Don’t ask questions you aren’t prepared to get the answers to. Pregnancy is expensive, and this is the reason many people are having abortions.If you bothered to read any of those stories you would see many had to choose between feeding the rest of their families and their pregnancy. You would have seen that if you do not receive the care you need while pregnant your child is “5 times more likely to die" upon being born. How is starving during your pregnancy, and having your children starve, going to help anyone? Self preservation is important, and if killing someone that doesn’t have the consensual use of your body is the only way you can survive than so be it. They don’t need your approval, they need to survive, if you want to help than help them, but if you’re not going to than you don’t have a right to shake your head at their choice.

You tell me that I shouldn’t be able to tell you that “many women have abortions say they have ‘no choice’ ” but yet you say “there are a lot of horrible problems with the adoption for profit models and foster care systems, believe it or not I am fighting to get these problems fixed as well because I want adoption to be just as safe and reliable a choice as abortion.” which means you are fighting for things that could possibly prevent abortions, yet you support abortion. That to me is contridicting yourself. 

How am I contradicting myself? You should fight for/against the things you want to change and ss I said numerous times I support abortion,adoption, pregnancy, etc. Just like I like chocolate and vanilla ice cream, the two aren’t mutually exclusive. I’m pro-choice because I am for choice. Do you realize you can be pro-choice, support abortion, but still be personally against abortion for yourself? I would LOVE to get the abortion numbers down, I really would, and I advocate things that help get the numbers down- Government Health Care, comprehensive sex education, free contraceptives, etc.- because believe it or not I don’t like that people have to go through the hassle that abortion can be. I would love a day where every pregnancy could be a wanted pregnancy, and the only abortions that are done is because of health related reasons (I say this because I dream of a world without forced sex as well).I’m going to fight for things that make it easier for pregnant people to be pregnant, for single parents to find jobs, to make adoption a better system, to education people about sex, to build proper consent models so rape is less frequent, and so many other things. Pro-choice is about choice, not solely about abortion.

“I’m going to ask you to please, please read this carefully. If you don’t want to respond that’s fine I’m not asking or forcing you to, you have to do what’s right by you, but if you plan on responding please read carefully. I would hate to have to keep bringing up the same points again and again.”

If you feel like you’re having to repeat yourself, that’s on you. I am reading your post very carefully and trying to understand what you’re saying to the best of my ability and replying back the best way I know how. I respond to you out of respect. You are taking the time to try and prove your point, so why wouldn’t I give you a response in return? 

I can both respect and appreciate this. I only mention this because I don’t want you to feel obligated to respond. I suffer from Anxiety andsometimes when I become triggered I sometimes have to take a step back from responding in order to keep my condition in check, I always try to take this into consideration when I’m talking to someone because I have zero idea if you suffer from something similar. I just want to make it clear that your self preservation is important, as is mine, so if you’re ever feeling to overwhelmed in responding I just want you to know I will never think poorly of you for lack of responding or that I “won”. I would appreciate the same of you, but don’t expect it.

Also, if you could please respond here I would greatly appreciate it. It’s much easier to get a quicker response out (as I have had to sit her for about an hour writing you back) when I can read it right infront of me, instead of having to go back and forth between your page and mine. This box doesn’t limit what you can say to me, so I don’t understand why I have to go to your page in order to respond to the questions and information you are responding to me.

I do apologize, but I explained it in the beginning but just a a refresher I can’t hyperlink information in an ask and there’s a character limit. I don’t know if you have an add on- like maybe missing e?- that allows you to post links inside people’s ask box an doesn’t have a character limit but I don’t, and I would really rather not be inhibited. I’m unsure if you’re actually reading through the links but I like citing where my information comes from.

The only reason I can see is that you want others to read what I say to you? I don’t know. Maybe I’m wrong. But I thought this conversation was between two people (you and I) not you, I and everyone else on tumblr.

Gave you the reason above. If it makes you feel any better it takes me about an hour to gather everything I need to respond to you. Again I do apologize for the hassle.

REBLOG | Posted 2 years ago With 11 notes
tags: #abortion

TRIGGER WARNINGS FOR ILLEGAL ABORTIONS AND RAPE

Also there’s a lot of cissexism in your ask, so I’m changing a few things.

[In reference to this]

First. Do not say that my beliefs mean nothing. They may mean nothing to you, but they mean everything to me. You are not debating my beliefs, you are debating Science.

I think you miss-worded there. I’m not debating Science as I believe in much of modern science provided the study is sound, unbiased, etc. I am debating your opinions, your beliefs with research, statistics, science, etc. I do apologize though because I miss-worded as well. What I meant was your beliefs don’t hold any ground in a debate, argument, discussion if you cannot back them up with some form of fact. If you are fighting to making abortion illegal and want to discourage others from getting abortions, you don’t have much to stand on if you’re just going to tell them that this is what you believe. Wanting to strip people of a right because that’s just your opinion doesn’t seem really awesome does it? I mean, there are tons of people who would want to strip me of rights just because I’m an ethnicity different than theirs, and they don’t have facts they have opinions.

Whether you think my beliefs are nothing is up to you, but I’d appreciate if you’d be a little more respectful of them. I didn’t say your beliefs meant nothing, just because I didn’t agree with them you should do the same for me.

I don’t have to respect your opinion if you’re using it to actively try and remove rights from me and others. And before you say “But your opinions remove the rights of babies~”. The legality of abortion doesn’t change the amount of abortions done [link 2], the only thing that changes is the amount of people who die or suffer serious complications. So you know that number of “unborn babies lost” you and other pro-lifers like to quote? Multiply it by two for the pregnant person and factor in all the children that will be left parent-less [the majority- about 61%- of people who seek abortion have one or more children]. And because I really like stories/essays by other people here’s a good one on abortion legality: “When abortion was a crime, I would have sought one”

If you personally don’t ever want to get an abortion this is fine, I can respect this and I will 100% support your choice to never get an abortion and will continue to fight for the programs that will make it easier for you and others to be pregnant. I will continue to fight for foster care reform and diminishing the power of adoption for profit. I will continue to fight to get make sure people know about the Safe Haven program. It’s when you want to remove this choice from others that I can’t respect it.

You consent to a baby being in your body when you consent to sex. You are clearly a smart person and so is any other [people] that has sex and I’m pretty sure you know that a baby can come from sex. Beings sex is for reproducing. So the argument of consent isn’t even one that you can argue. Unless it’s rape, obviously a [person] doesn’t consent to rape.

Le sigh~ Again one of my points went over your head. You brought up a point I have already refuted. I will quote it again and hopefully re-reading it for the third time will hep it sink in a little:

Human people need continuous consent in order to legally use another human person’s body. If a human person is doing something illegal [like using someone’s body without their continuous consent] they forfeit their rights; and if that human person if using your body against your will you have every right to defend yourself, even if the minimal defense is to kill them (see justifiable homicide). I say continuous consent because you seem to think consenting to one act- sex- is also consenting to pregnancy. Even though smoking a cigarette or bathing in the sun is certainly not consenting to cancer [even though people know that those are the proven affects of those activities]- and even if it was we do not bar people from treatment to rid themselves of cancer, same way we do not bar people from treatment to rid themselves of a pregnancy. People need continuous consent, this is why if someone consents to sex initially but wants to stop half way through and the other party continues it is still considered rape." [From my first answer to you here]

I tried to bold the most important parts to make it easier for you but here’s the simple break down: consenting to act A doesn’t mean you consent to known outcome B, and even if it did you can retract consent and still be within your legal right to do so.

I’m going to ask you to please read carefully and take your time so we don’t have to go over things I’ve already refuted.

So just because a child might or might get adopted means it’s alright to abort it? See, I don’t think it’s right. So us debating this isn’t going to go anywhere.

Actually if you re-read my argument I never said that :). I said adoption is an alternative to being a parent- which is is- but not an alternative to being pregnant- which it isn’t. The only alternative to being pregnant once your pregnant is an abortion. I also went on a long rant about how if it is your choice to give your child up for adoption, than I’ll support it 100%, I didn’t once say you should just abort because there is a chance the child won’t get a home. I just said that there are a lot of horrible problems with the adoption for profit models and foster care systems, believe it or not I am fighting to get these problems fixed as well because I want adoption to be just as safe and reliable a choice as abortion.

I’m also not debating this for your benefit, I knew this the moment you favoured your opinions over science that even pro-life politicians yield to. I’m breaking down your arguments and refuting them with facts (science, statistics, research, etc.) as a tool for people. So people know the facts, and not just your beliefs.

You know you bring up YOUR CHOICE a lot. That’s what you as a “pro-choicer” would say. But why is it that many [people] that have abortions say “I had no choice”? Hmm.

There are many people who are enthusiastic and thankful about their abortions. It just so happens that many of those people are demonized for that reason. They don’t publicize their stories for fear death threats and harm from the “pro-life” side. I mean, look at Angie Jackson who live tweeted her abortion and made a youtube video of the transcribed events where she was smiling. She was happy and thankful and she received death threats for being so. It’s not that many people feel like that have no choice- and I will do a break down as to why those people exist, I promise- it’s just that those are the well known stories because others are too afraid to step forward thanks to “pro-life” proponents. But here are some stories of people happy to have abortions and other stories that relate to that fact [I’ve already posted these in this response to you, so if you’ve read them already my apologies]:

“I would like to be kept anonymous, not because I am ashamed, but because of the fact that when I have previously been open and honest about my situation I have been ostracized to the point where I genuinely feel my life was threatened…I don’t want my child to be a punishment, and no matter how hard I would’ve tried, you cannot fake being a mom without failing miserably at it.”

“I am not a victim of my choice”

“I had a friend die from an illegal abortion… I happily paid for the abortion my daughter needed…”

[TRIGGER WARNING ON SOME OF THESE STORIES] Thanks, Abortion! has a lot of stories from people who are thankful for their abortions,

My Journey Through Abortion [full blog]

A [person] is a living, growing human being

Inconvenient Dreams

Now as for why many people feel as if they had no choice (excluding health reasons) I’m going to point you to here: Abortion Fund has Five Available stories on people seeking abortion in different situations.

Many of the “no choices”- not just these but many others- have to do with money and this is because just being pregnant is expensive.

• Forty-two percent of [people] obtaining abortions have incomes below 100% of the federal poverty level ($10,830 for a single [person] with no children [though the majority of people seeking abortions have one or more child]).[6]

• Twenty-seven percent of [people] obtaining abortions have incomes between 100–199% of the federal poverty level.* [6] [source]

The average vaginal delivery with minimal prenatal care prior and drugs to make you comfortable during the procedure is $16,000, if you need a c-section the price jumps to $20,000. If you need an ambulance, suffer complications, have gestational diabetes or a slue of other pregnancy health hazards the price for both delivery and pregnancy care sky rockets. If you were told by your doctor that your child will be born prematurely and want to prevent it this means paying $1,500 every time you need the drug that prevents it- it used to be $10 but pro-life politicians gave a company rights to be the sole producer. If a person doesn’t receive prenatal care during their pregnancy their children are “3 times more likely to be born at low birth weight and 5 times more likely to die than those whose parents received prenatal care" according to the Department of Health and Human Services. There are over 46 million uninsured Americans so they are paying this out of pocket. A normal abortion done within the time frame most abortions are done in- before 12 weeks- cost $400 MAXIMUM. The funny thing- not relating to you or the discussion, I just appreciate the irony in this- this is the kicker, is that many pro-life lawmakers and supporters are against Planned Parenthood, which- get this- provides cheap prenatal care and referral services! They help pregnant people be pregnant! Planned Parenthood even lowers the numbers of abortions! Isn’t that ironic?

But back to my main point. You want less people to feel as if they’ve had more of a choice? Join a movement that fights for Government Healthcare, and find programs where you can support pregnant people be pregnant. If you already do all these things awesome! You’re on the right tract. But don’t sit there and tell me how that many [people] that have abortions say “I had no choice” if you’re not going to at least advocate for programs that’ll help give them a better choice.

As far as you responding to something on my page, I have not looked at my page yet today, as I have been writing “pro-choicers” back ever since I logged on and haven’t had a break to check my blog.

Hey, it’s cool I understand. I’m not expecting a response. I was just pointing you in the direction of something that had more information on this pertaining to what you were saying.

But thanks for assuming that I’m going to “Fuk facts”. You’re awesome :D

Again, I know I already said it once in here but I’ll say it again, you’ve already openly admitted to not caring about science if it doesn’t coincide with what you believe. This is pretty much telling me “hey, my opinion are more important than factual evidence that contradicts it”.

I’m going to ask you to please, please read this carefully. If you don’t want to respond that’s fine I’m not asking or forcing you to, you have to do what’s right by you, but if you plan on responding please read carefully. I would hate to have to keep bringing up the same points again and again.

REBLOG | Posted 2 years ago With 19 notes
tags: #abortion

[Trigger warning for rape]

[In reference to this] The points of what I was saying have gone so far over your head they’re in outer-space.

The sites you sent me are all wonderful and whatnot, but just because Science says a “fetus” cannot feel before a certain time means absolutely nothing to me. Science has said things in the past and been proven wrong, therefore what they say now can be proven wrong also. Furthermore, I personally believe that life is life no matter how small, that a “fetus” as “Pro-Choicers” like to call the unborn child is life as of conception so no amount of Science is going to make me believe otherwise.

We aren’t back in the middle ages trying to turn lead into gold. Our understanding of human biology is far greater than thinking fruit flies are born of rotting fruit. While it’s true that science can advance and we can be proven wrong these are the same doctors that create the standard for health pregnancies, the whole reason the mortality rate from child birth has dropped in the “western world”is because of these institutes. I love how you can enjoy those advances they’ve made to make a pregnancy healthier and safer but won’t dare believe anything they say about the developing fetus if it goes against what “you believe”. P.S. Your beliefs mean nothing if you can’t back them up with modern day research.

Edit: Let’s not forget that most pro-life proponents (politicians and law makers) actually concede that fetal paint and awareness starts at twenty-weeks the earliest. This is why this was chosen as the marker for legal elective abortions in certain states [link 2] [link 3] (link three is even a pro-life bias website, I chose that one just for you~).

We call it a fetus/embryo because that’s what it is, if you would have read any other of my responses to you you would know that (I used wikipedia links as they are peer edited by everyone and most everything is sited). A baby is defined as a human person between the moment of birth to eleven months. Calling an embryo/fetus a child is emotional manipulation used by pro-life proponents to get people for their cause. We do not call children born fetuses, so stop referring to a gestating fetus as a child.

There’s also a million legal and biological flaws defining personhood by conception:

  1. You ignoring chimerism- where two conceived eggs fuse into one egg. Does this mean there were two people and they fused into one person? If so does that mean they get to vote twice? Pay double the taxes? Cover two people under the health insurance?
  2. You are also ignoring identical twins- where one conceived egg splits into two. Does this mean they’re just two halves of the same person? Their votes only count half as much? They only have to pay half the taxes? Etc.?
  3. You are also ignoring Molar Pregnancies- when a conceived egg turns into a mole into a uterus. It never grows into a full born baby, but it was conceived, and by your logic this means it’s a person. So what about them?
  4. How about that conceived eggs, millions of them, are naturally flushed out of the body by a normal menstrual cycle? Should we investigate each pad, devicup, liner, and tampon for a potential crime scene? After all, it’s not proper to throw all these dead people away in the rubbish bin by the toilet.

Those are only four, I could be here all day naming the other problems with personhood at conception. But you already said facts mean shit to you and you would much rather go off your rather uneducated opinion appose to facts.

And no one should be able to murder just because it’s available to them. I believe that everyone is a “potential life” including you and I. No one is promised tomorrow but that doesn’t mean that if I murdered you or vise versa that it should be “okay”.

I never said anyone should be able to murder because it was available to them, and I never used the term potential life. Your bringing those things up now. I said people are allowed to kill in order to defend themselves from the nonconseual use of their body, again it is called justifiable homicide and is very much legal. If you were attacking me, if you were attempting to use my body without my consent- or vice versa- and if my killing you in self defense is the minimal force necessary to defend my bodily autonomy then it is 100% legal. We have had this right to defend ourselves and our bodily autonomy, but you- and many other anti-choicers- seem to think a fetus is special and has more rights than any other human person.

As far as rape goes with Abortion I never said I was or wasn’t understandable of a woman who is raped getting an abortion. Personally I wouldn’t get an abortion in any circumstance, there are other options out there for you and more women should look into that and take advantage of those options before even considering abortion in my opinion. But, I could comprehend and possibly even understand if a woman was getting an abortion as a result of a rape, not saying that it is okay, but I could understand. It’s when women use selfish and senseless reason to do so that I have a problem with it.

Funny thing, I never brought up abortion concerning rape! I really want you to go back and carefully reread what I wrote, because you really missed everything. I brought up rape as a model for where continuous consent is needed in order to use a person’s body and initial consent to one act means nothing if a person retracts the consent later. Here is the sentence out of context, but I encourage you to go back and re-read it in it’s entirety: "People need continuous consent, this is why if someone consents to sex initially but wants to stop half way through and the other party continues it is still considered rape."

Also, if those “other options” are adoption, and possibly Safe Haven if you’re in New York or New Jersey, but those don’t help diddly. Adoption is an alternative to parenting, not an alternative to pregnancy. There is only one alternative to pregnancy once someone has already become pregnant. Not to mention the current adoption system is in disarray and rampant with racism, ageism, and even sexism. Here’s some resources on that for you:

A look at adoption and why it is NOT an alternative to getting an abortion.

Adoption: Children Waiting in Foster Care

Emotional and mental stress of adoption: the adoptive parent[s] and the one who put the child up for adoption [from this post]

Catholic Adoption Agencies Whine Because Illinois Isn’t Giving Them Tax Money to Discriminate

“Adoption in the United States: Harder and More Complicated Than Most Believe But ‘Open’ to Change”

“I marched against abortion rights and was adamantly pro-life…until I got pregnant.” [speaks about racism in the adoption industry]

I am not discouraging adoption. If you want to adopt or put your child up for adoption this is your choice and I will support you and your choice. But it has to be- say it with me- YOUR CHOICE. Forcing someone to go through pregnancy only to give their child up for adoption is not an awesome thing. I posted one thing on the mental ill-affects of giving your child up for adoption (not to mention the mental ill-affects of a forced pregnancy [link 2] and pregnancy in general [link 2]), here’s a story from a tumblr user to go along with it: “I was forced into nine months of pregnancy, and word spread fast in our tiny town that little Samantha Johnson was pregnant, and oh, the things I heard said about me.”

It is not my goal to scare people away from any option- whether it be pregnancy, adoption, abortion, c-section, vaginal birth, drugless birth, all the drugs, etc- it is my goal for people to make any of these choices safely, securely, and without fear of someone forcing anything on them. My goal is to make choice safe.

I highly recommend- if you haven’t already, I haven’t been to your page yet this morning but I will go as soon as I’m done writing this- that you read my nice long response to something you wrote. It includes more facts and statistics, stories of who has abortions and why, and other things I have been referring to in my responses to your questions.

But I’m sure you won’t care, because you’re just going off your opinions. Fuk facts amirite?

REBLOG | Posted 2 years ago With 25 notes
tags: #abortion
I wasn't saying that bestiality was okay, you should take your own advice and use common sense. You say an animal can't consent to an abortion, well neither can an unborn child. Your argument is invalid.

[Trigger warning for rape]
If you actually comprhended my comment you would have seen I never said you said bestiality was okay, I was using it as an example of a legal situation where one thing is legal and okay because of proper consent- human person sex- but something else is illegal and not okay because of improper consent- bestiality. Much like abortion is okay as long as people consent, but if someone forces anyone to have an abortion it is a bad thing.

Furthermore if you would have read some of my other replies to the ridiculous things you wrote you would have seen two things:

  1. Fetus/embryo can’t consent to anything. The Royal College of Gynaecologist and Obstetricians released a study in 2008 that say fetus aren’t capable of awarness until 24 weeks THE EARLIEST, an American Study by the American Congress of Gynecologist and Obstetricians says 28 weeks, if ever before leaving the womb.
  2. Human people need continuous consent in order to legally use another human person’s body. If a human person is doing something illegal they forfeit their rights; and if that human person if using your body against your will you have every right to defend yourself, even if the minimal defense is to kill them (see justifiable homicide). I say continuous consent because you seem to think consenting to one act- sex- is also consenting to pregnancy. Even though smoking a cigarette or bathing in the sun is certainly not consenting to cancer- and even if it was we do not bar people from treatment to rid themselves of cancer, same way we do not bar people from treatment to rid themselves of a pregnancy. People need continuous consent, this is why if someone consents to sex initially but wants to stop half way through and the other party continues it is still considered rape.

EDIT: Just wanna add this in case you bring it up. Not being aware doesn’t mean you’re incapable of committing a crime- “ignorance of the law does not excuse”. If an officer pulls me over for speeding, and I plead with him that the speed limit wasn’t visibly posted and I didn’t know, he is still legally responsible to ticket me (thought it would be nice if he didn’t). People have committed crimes while sleep walking, completely unaware of their actions, if one of the victims had killed any of those people in self defense to retain their bodily autonomy it would still be considered justifiable homicide provided it was the minimal force needed to stop their attacker. Regardless if their attacker was aware at the time.

Your lack of comprehension doesn’t make my argument invalid.

REBLOG | Posted 2 years ago With 5 notes
tags: #abortion
» [Trigger warning for health related abortions, birth control tampering, pregnancy coercion]

tiffanyannelise:

So it’s wrong because it’s not something you would do? Way to give the rest of the world a say in how they conduct…

No, it’s not wrong because it’s something that I wouldn’t do. It’s wrong for me to do. You obviously have your opionion on that subject, I was stating mine. I’m not giving the world a say in anything except my OPINION. Have you ever heard of that? Yeah, everyone has one and it’s my right to speak it if I feel the need to do so. Have you ever protested eating meat? If you have you are trying to have a say in how someone eats, right? Yeah. 

You’ve watched several? That’s not every abortion video out there though. I’m pretty sure each one is different. Abortions are performed at different stages of pregnacy depending on when the mother decides to have it done. Not all abortions are performed early on. There are some that go beyond the 6th month terms. There have also been cases where doctors let the mother go into full labor, give birth and just let the baby die. Do you think that’s okay too? Do you also call it an embryo/fetus because you want to make yourself feel better by not acknowledging that it’s a life? I hope that does make you feel better, I guess it would make me feel better if I thought like you do too. 

Yes, that’s one case. There a millions more who have given there testimonies of how guilty they felt afterwards or how they cry every night because of the decision they made to have an abortion. So it’s not just her that has had a change of thought once they’ve actually went through with the abortion. 

I have no desire to talk to doctors who perform abortions, they are murderers in my opinon so why would I want to talk to them? I wouldn’t talk to someone that killed my sister/mother/father/brother/friend, etc, so I’m damn sure not going to talk to someone that kills something that can’t consent to it. 

Furthermore, have you ever heard the word sadist? It is someone who obtains pleasure from inflicting pain onto others. I think you might be that.  You seem to have no empathy for a human life, whether it’s unborn or not, especially when you say that the only tears that are shed are ones of relief. Tears should be shed for the potential life that isn’t going to happen and even for the mother that decided through with the abortion because she’s going to have to live with that for the rest of her life. 

You obviously are not going to see or understand where I’m coming from because our views are vastly different on many levels. We are wasting each others time continuing to talk about this. 

I’ll end it with this, you have your opinion and I have mine and we can leave it at that. I’d appreciate it if you left me alone, I have no desire to continue this discussion with you any longer. 

Take care :D

There is so much ignorance in this post, I cannot even.

Abortions are performed at different stages of pregnacy depending on when the [parent] decides to have it done. Not all abortions are performed early on. There are some that go beyond the 6th month terms. There have also been cases where doctors let the mother go into full labor, give birth and just let the baby die.

You’re right, not all abortions are preformed early on, just most of them. 61.8% of abortions happen before 9 weeks, 88% happen before 12. Only 1.5% happen AFTER 21 weeks [5.25 months] and those are because of HEALTH CONCERNS. Either the parent’s life is in danger or the fetus has an abnormality that would cause it to be still born. Here are some story of late term abortions and abortions due to fetal abnormalities or for the parent’s health:

“A Heart Breaking Choice”

“Confronting Life”

Abortion-Six Months Pregnant

“Catholic Bishop Castigates and Threatens Hospital that Saved Woman’s Life”

“Abortion Saved My Life”

Furthermore the whole thing there Doctors “let the mother go into full labor, give birth and just let the baby die” is a myth cooked up by the pro-life proghanda machine. The closest thing to it is “partial birth abortions” which were made illegal in 2003 unless the parent would die without one. Here are a few stories of people you needed to have these procedures:

“BACK THE FUCK OFF: One woman’s abortion story and why politicians need to leave [people] alone”

“Between a Woman and Her Doctor: A Story About Abortion You Will Never Forget”

Edit: And here’s an article of why people even wait until the second trimester:

What Kind Of [Person] Has A Second Trimester Abortion?

So basically this entire part of your argument is un-researched B.S.

Do you also call it an embryo/fetus because you want to make yourself feel better by not acknowledging that it’s a life?

We call it an embryo/fetus because that’s what it is. A baby is defined as a human person between the moment of birth to eleven months. Calling an embryo/fetus a child is emotional manipulation used by pro-life proponents to get people for their cause. We do not call children born fetuses, so stop referring to a gestating fetus as a child.

There a millions … who have given there testimonies of how guilty they felt afterwards or how they cry every night because of the decision they made to have an abortion. So it’s not just her that has had a change of thought once they’ve actually went through with the abortion.

Actually, no, there are not “millions”. “The most common feeling experienced after an abortion is that of relief and confidence in the decision. Few [people] may experience feelings of grief and guilt, and these feelings usually pass within days to weeks in most cases and do not lead to mental health problems.” (Source) Also, 80% of [people] who terminate do not regret their decision. (Source). Here are some stories from people who were relieved/happy about their abortions:

“I would like to be kept anonymous, not because I am ashamed, but because of the fact that when I have previously been open and honest about my situation I have been ostracized to the point where I genuinely feel my life was threatened…I don’t want my child to be a punishment, and no matter how hard I would’ve tried, you cannot fake being a mom without failing miserably at it.”

“I am not a victim of my choice”

“I had a friend die from an illegal abortion… I happily paid for the abortion my daughter needed…”

My Journey Through Abortion [full blog]

A woman is a living, growing human being

Abortion Fund has Five Available stories on people seeking abortion in different situations.

[TRIGGER WARNING ON SOME OF THESE STORIES] Thanks, Abortion!

Furthermore people are more likely to experience mental ill-affects after pregnancy than after an abortion [link 2] [link 3]. Remember, postpartum depression is a recognized mental illness Post Abortion Stress Syndrome isn’t. There’s absolutely not proof of it’s existence. The APA doesn’t think so [PDF]. The Guttmacher Institute doesn’t think so. Psychology Today doesn’t think so. The Archives of General Psychiatry don’t think so. Oregon State University doesn’t think so.The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders doesn’t recognize it on it’s list of mental disorders. The Johns Hopkins University doesn’t think so. The University of California doesn’t think so. There isn’t one reputable unbiased institution that will support it’s existence. This isn’t to say that people don’t regret their decision, some do and it’s a valid emotion that needs to be taken into consideration. But the few regret their decision, not one made for them; getting rid of abortion leaves no room for decision, and forced pregnancy isn’t a good thing for anyone:

“I was forced into nine months of pregnancy, and word spread fast in our tiny town that little Samantha Johnson was pregnant, and oh, the things I heard said about me.”

Nebraska mom carried non-viable pregnancy due to law [link 2] [link 3] [video]

[Trigger Warning for Domestic Abuse] 1 in 4 Hotline Callers Report Birth Control Sabotage, Pregnancy Coercion

So there’s another part of your argument that’s uneducated.

I’m damn sure not going to talk to someone that kills something that can’t consent to it.

Funny thing. Fetus/embryo can’t consent to anything. The Royal College of Gynaecologist and Obstetricians released a study in 2008 that say fetus aren’t capable of awarness until 24 weeks THE EARLIEST, an American Study by the American Congress of Gynecologist and Obstetricians says 28 weeks, if ever before leaving the womb.

I also find it fascinating how you’re perfectly okay with an embryo/fetus using another human person’s body without their consent. If you believe that a fetus is a human person and has all the rights a human person can have it still doesn’t give it the right to someone else’s body with that person’s continuous, ongoing consent. The “right to life” only consist of your own means and the means people are willing to give you. People die every day from lack of organ, blood, and other body tissue donations everyday because the right to bodily autonomy triumphs the right to life in every other case. Even if the person donating the things that can save someone’s life is dead; that’s why hospitals need either prior written consent or consent of whoever holds the person’s power to harvest the organs of a recently deceased patient.

If someone is using your body without your consent you have every right to defend yourself, even if the minimal defense is to kill them (see justifiable homicide).

So here’s my question for you, since you posed that silly “but what if dogs have abortions?” question.

Do you believe the right to life triumphs the right to bodily autonomy and property in all cases? This means, but is not limited to: mandatory tissue donations- blood, bone marrow, organs, etc.; mandatory monetary and food donations in order to help starving people; “free” health care so no one will die due to lack of funds; mandatory property donations so people have shelter from the elements and won’t die from exposure; etc..

If you don’t believe in all of this, then you’re giving a fetus/embryo rights no other human person has and you’re only interested in the right to life if it can be sustained at the sole burden of people with a uterus.

I seriously doubt you’re as well read up as you claim to be on the subject of reproductive rights.

REBLOG | Posted 2 years ago With 46 notes
tags: #abortion