[In response to this] Not photo capping this one because it’s rather long, but the entire question is broken up below.
TRIGGER FOR ILLEGAL ABORTIONS, RAPE, AND CISSSEXISM
Yes, it is a bit of hassel actually. It would be much easier if I could just write you back here.
I can’t hyperlink, and there is an ask character limit. Writing another ask in your ask box with myresponses to yours would severely limit the response. I apologize for the hassle but I don’t want to limit my response to you based on ask box restrictions.
You don’t want someone to strip you of your rights, but aren’t you doing the same with the rights of the unborn child. We as humans have the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, do we not? Why should one human life have that right and another not?
Actually, the line you quoted is in the Declaration of Independence not in the Constitution and it’s Amendments. The later of the two outline our rights, not the Deceleration of Independents. Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness aren’t rights granted to the American People. However since we are apart of the UN Reproductive Rights are- Members of the UN are told they must keep abortion legal. Here’s another article laying out the complete list of legal documents concerning Reproductive Rights.
I know you’re going to say that an unborn child isn’t human as do most of the “pro-choicers” that write me. How can someone say that an unborn child isn’t human when it’s clearly made from two different ‘humans’?
First off, you’re confused. It’s not that a gestating fetus isn’t human, it is I don’t think I’ve ever disputed this. It’s that it’s not recognized as a human person. There’s a difference between being human- being made up of human cells and DNA- and being a human person. For example my foot on it’s own is human, it’s a human foot, but if I remove my foot from my body it would perish without me but I can continue to live without my foot. I can explain further if you’d like, but I’m leaving it at that for now.
Second, even if “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” were legal rights people were granted we are only granted on the basis of what we can provide to ourselves and what people are willing to give us. There are hundreds of homeless people who die from exposure to the elements, because people aren’t forced to give up their property in order to save their lives. There are dozens of people who die from the inability to get the proper blood transfusion, or organ because people are not mandated to donate their bodies to save their lives. By saying a fetus can nonconsentually live inside someone’s body for nine months because they have the right to life is giving it rights that no other human person has. You, and other pro-lifers, are looking to give rights to a fetus that no other human person has. The right to life doesn’t triumph the right to property or bodily autonomy in any other situation.
You are using your opinion to actually remove the rights (not try to remove them) from the rights of the unborn child, but I can still respect them because it’s your opinion. If you do not want to respect someone else’s views on abortion that’s YOUR CHOICE. You can do what you want. $50 million unborn babies die every year from abortion, is that the number we pro-lifers like to quote? Does that number mean nothing to you, because you are pretty nonchalant about it and that’s a bit unnerving. It also doesn’t come anywhere near the amount of women who die from abortions (whether they be legal or illegal abortions). That’s an amount that could be prevented, but isn’t. There’s no need for me to multiply that number because of course a woman has a “choice” to abort or not to abort, am I right? She can clearly choose to NOT abort her baby.
I may be using my opinions but I have backed everything up with facts- science, statistics, real world comparisons, research, etc. It’s what I’ve been siting this whole time. It’s why I need hyperlinks in order to respond to you.
I also preemptively addressed this as well in my last response to you:
And before you say “But your opinions remove the rights of babies~”. The legality of abortion doesn’t change the amount of abortions done [link 2], the only thing that changes is the amount of people who die or suffer serious complications. So you know that number of “unborn babies lost” you and other pro-lifers like to quote? Multiply it by two for the pregnant person and factor in all the children that will be left parent-less [the majority- about 61%- of people who seek abortion have one or more children]. And because I really like stories/essays by other people here’s a good one on abortion legality: “When abortion was a crime, I would have sought one”
Again, I will say it without the links that back up the information, the amount of abortions done does not change whether or not the procedure is legal. So that 50 million number will multply by two because after each illegal abortion the chance of the parent dying along with the fetus is nearly equal. Death for the parent from legal abortions however are near unheard of, in fact for every abortion related death in the USA, 10 people die in childbirth (via AGI & CDC).
Like I said before. Pro-Lifers may be trying to “remove the rights of others” but Pro-Choicers DO remove the rights of others every single day.
Please refer to everything above. Saying a fetus can use someone’s body for nine months without their consent is giving it a right no other human person has. It is actively allowing an illegal act (the nonconsentual use of someone’s body), giving a person’s attacker amnesty and disallowing a person to defend themselves and their bodily autonomy the only way they currently can.
Bringing cancer into this argument is a bit overboard if I might say. But I’ll go with it. You know that a baby comes from sex we’ve cleared that up already. Therefore you know that a pregnancy can happen if you have sex. If you do the action of having sex you should have to be responsible for those actions. Like when you say smoking cigarettes causes cancer, yes it does and if I don’t want cancer from smoking cigarettes I’m going to do whatever it takes to not get it. Hints why I do not smoke cigarettes. I also do not overly bathe in the sun or go tanning because I know that I could possibly get cancer from it. It’s called taking every precaution we know we can take to prevent something we know can happen from happening, simple as that.
I only brought it up as a model for where consent to act A doesn’t mean you are consenting to result B. Taking that precaution is your choice, and good for you, but not everyone has to choose it and your saying that you take precautions doesn’t negate the argument, and we still do not bar people who get cancer fromsmoking from receiving treatment. You wouldn’t say getting chemo for your lung cancer caused by smoking isn’t taking responsibility for your actions, on the contrary you’d probably say it’s a very smart thing to do. Having an abortion is taking responsibility for your actions, just because you don’t agree with it doesn’t mean it’s not a responsible action- it’s recognizing that you aren’t ready for a pregnancy. Please refer to my other post to you as to why forced pregnancy is pretty gosh darn awful.
There are people who never, ever want children or want to be pregnant- I know at least two personally- are you also saying they should never ever be able to experience sex?
I’ve done my research and less than 1% of women use failed birth control as a reason, so that makes me think they aren’t doing everything they can to prevent the pregnancy they KNOW can happen from happening.
Pardon you “done your research”? I really doubt this, I would love to know where you found that information and when that information was collected because a 2000-2001 study doesn’t agree:
• Fifty-four percent of [people] who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant….
• Forty-six percent of [people] who have abortions had not used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Of these[people] , 33% had perceived themselves to be at low risk for pregnancy (normally they were told either them or their partner were infertile), 32% had had concerns about contraceptive methods (this is from improper sexual health education thanks to abstinence only health programs), 26% had had unexpected sex and (reported) 1% had been forced to have sex. (source)
Yes, of course we don’t bar someone treatment for cancer (regardless of how they got the cancer) because it’s saving their life and not hurting another life in the process. Also, a baby isn’t a cancer so you kind of can’t compare the two.
Once more, I was comparing the two in that it was obviousthat consenting to one act doesn’t mean you’re consenting to other.
There’s also my rape model in which consent can be retracted and if killing that person is the only way you could defend yourself against the continuous noncensensual use of your body it is legal and we do not penalize those who defend themselves provided it is the minimal force necessary. Currently abortion is the minimal force necessary to stop an embryo/fetus from the continual nonconsensual use of your body. And I will say it again: consenting to act A is not consenting to result B, and even if it were consent can be retracted.
“I am fighting to get these problems fixed as well because I want adoption to be just as safe and reliable a choice as abortion.”
Abortion isn’t a “safe” option, especially when it’s killing an unborn child. And even in instances it kills the mother. So how is it a “safe” option when the outcome for one is definitely going to be the ending of a life?
I posted one link above but you have received information when it comesto the safety of abortion. Abortion is actually one of the safest procedures in existence, and it’s actually safer than pregnancy, carrying to term, and delivery. The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (RCOG) has found that abortion is safer than birthing a child. “Fewer than 0.3% of abortion patients experience a complication that requires hospitalization.” And, I posted this once before in this wall of text but I’ll post it again, for every abortion related death in the USA, 10 people die in childbirth (via AGI & CDC).
And here’s another thing I’m repeating: when someone is using your body without your continual consent (remember the rape example I brought up a bunch of times) you are within your legal right to defend yourself, even if the minimal defense is to kill them.
Why do you keep changing women to [people]? The only [people] that have abortions are women beings a woman is the only [person] that can physically get pregnant.
I change it to people because you are being cissexist. Not everyone who can get pregnant identifies as a woman. You are erasing trans men, intersex people who have the ability to become pregnant, genderqueer, genderfluid, agendered, genderless, and many other people who indentify outside the binary. By calling ovaries, a womb, etc. “woman parts” you are being a binarist, and again cissexist, as those parts belong to other people who do not identify as women.
As far as your response to [people] saying they have no choice, you didn’t really say much in the response to dispute it. Also, I am not going to send death threats to anyone. Let alone to someone just because they are happy about getting an abortion, although I think that’s quite sickening to be happy about killing your own child. But I’m still not going to threaten to kill someone because that’s their reaction to such a horrific crime.
What do you mean I didn’t say much to that? I provided you with over a dozen stories of people happy about their abortions, and even explained why more people don’t come forward. I also never said you would, I just implied that you have aligned yourself with a group that has done it.Your reluctance to read through the educational material I have provided you doesn’t mean I haven’t affectingly refuted your central point.
So because being pregnant is expensive means I should take a life and it be okay to do so? Living is expensive so that means I should kill someone for money? It worries me that the longest paragraph you right me trying to make your point is how expensive a pregnancy can be. That we should compare money to a life.
These questions are all illogical straw men. You are accusing me of implying things I haven’t, and making an illogical connection. You wanted to know why people felt they didn’t have a choice, I told you why. Don’t ask questions you aren’t prepared to get the answers to. Pregnancy is expensive, and this is the reason many people are having abortions.If you bothered to read any of those stories you would see many had to choose between feeding the rest of their families and their pregnancy. You would have seen that if you do not receive the care you need while pregnant your child is “5 times more likely to die" upon being born. How is starving during your pregnancy, and having your children starve, going to help anyone? Self preservation is important, and if killing someone that doesn’t have the consensual use of your body is the only way you can survive than so be it. They don’t need your approval, they need to survive, if you want to help than help them, but if you’re not going to than you don’t have a right to shake your head at their choice.
You tell me that I shouldn’t be able to tell you that “many women have abortions say they have ‘no choice’ ” but yet you say “there are a lot of horrible problems with the adoption for profit models and foster care systems, believe it or not I am fighting to get these problems fixed as well because I want adoption to be just as safe and reliable a choice as abortion.” which means you are fighting for things that could possibly prevent abortions, yet you support abortion. That to me is contridicting yourself.
How am I contradicting myself? You should fight for/against the things you want to change and ss I said numerous times I support abortion,adoption, pregnancy, etc. Just like I like chocolate and vanilla ice cream, the two aren’t mutually exclusive. I’m pro-choice because I am for choice. Do you realize you can be pro-choice, support abortion, but still be personally against abortion for yourself? I would LOVE to get the abortion numbers down, I really would, and I advocate things that help get the numbers down- Government Health Care, comprehensive sex education, free contraceptives, etc.- because believe it or not I don’t like that people have to go through the hassle that abortion can be. I would love a day where every pregnancy could be a wanted pregnancy, and the only abortions that are done is because of health related reasons (I say this because I dream of a world without forced sex as well).I’m going to fight for things that make it easier for pregnant people to be pregnant, for single parents to find jobs, to make adoption a better system, to education people about sex, to build proper consent models so rape is less frequent, and so many other things. Pro-choice is about choice, not solely about abortion.
“I’m going to ask you to please, please read this carefully. If you don’t want to respond that’s fine I’m not asking or forcing you to, you have to do what’s right by you, but if you plan on responding please read carefully. I would hate to have to keep bringing up the same points again and again.”
If you feel like you’re having to repeat yourself, that’s on you. I am reading your post very carefully and trying to understand what you’re saying to the best of my ability and replying back the best way I know how. I respond to you out of respect. You are taking the time to try and prove your point, so why wouldn’t I give you a response in return?
I can both respect and appreciate this. I only mention this because I don’t want you to feel obligated to respond. I suffer from Anxiety andsometimes when I become triggered I sometimes have to take a step back from responding in order to keep my condition in check, I always try to take this into consideration when I’m talking to someone because I have zero idea if you suffer from something similar. I just want to make it clear that your self preservation is important, as is mine, so if you’re ever feeling to overwhelmed in responding I just want you to know I will never think poorly of you for lack of responding or that I “won”. I would appreciate the same of you, but don’t expect it.
Also, if you could please respond here I would greatly appreciate it. It’s much easier to get a quicker response out (as I have had to sit her for about an hour writing you back) when I can read it right infront of me, instead of having to go back and forth between your page and mine. This box doesn’t limit what you can say to me, so I don’t understand why I have to go to your page in order to respond to the questions and information you are responding to me.
I do apologize, but I explained it in the beginning but just a a refresher I can’t hyperlink information in an ask and there’s a character limit. I don’t know if you have an add on- like maybe missing e?- that allows you to post links inside people’s ask box an doesn’t have a character limit but I don’t, and I would really rather not be inhibited. I’m unsure if you’re actually reading through the links but I like citing where my information comes from.
The only reason I can see is that you want others to read what I say to you? I don’t know. Maybe I’m wrong. But I thought this conversation was between two people (you and I) not you, I and everyone else on tumblr.
Gave you the reason above. If it makes you feel any better it takes me about an hour to gather everything I need to respond to you. Again I do apologize for the hassle.